Intelligent Export Options

[Worldsday]

I don't know what it looks like on other people's stations, but for me, the fields in OpenShot's "advanced" export panel seem to just pull a list of all the available things that ffmpeg can write to.


Last time I checked, flac is not a video format, and gif is not a codec.
Nearly half of the "video formats" listed are not video container formats (wav, ac3, aiff). Hell, some aren't even file types at all (alsa, s24le, spdif).

If you do happen to select a valid video container from the first list, you are still left with a list of every single possible (and impossible) video and audio codec with which to encode. There is no container-dependent context for any of the available codecs, so there's nothing stopping me from, say, trying to encode an mp4 file using the libvpx video and flac audio.



This makes OpenShot a superb tool for exporting videos that no one can open. Although this feature may be useful when I go over the deadline and need to send my client a "corrupted" video file to buy me some time, I'd prefer to have a smarter export dialogue.

Ideally, in the export dialogue I would first specify the video container format, then select from only the video and audio codecs that work with that container. There would then be bit-rate and other encoding options SPECIFIC to those codecs. At the moment, the audio and video dialogues have just one field for selecting the same pre-determined bit-rates, regardless of what codec I've selected or whether it's lossless.

I think this would be a really excellent amendment to OpenShot, and I would love to know what the developers think about its feasibility. Thanks!

[Andy]

I've never seen flac appear under video formats on my system

These lists are populated by querying ffmpeg (libavformat, libavcodec) for supported formats/codecs etc. If ffmpeg returns false information then there is not a lot we can do to override it.

Ideally, in the export dialogue I would first specify the video container format, then select from only the video and audio codecs that work with that container. There would then be bit-rate and other encoding options SPECIFIC to those codecs.

Yes, it's a good idea - can you point us to where we can find this information?

At the moment, the audio and video dialogues have just one field for selecting the same pre-determined bit-rates, regardless of what codec I've selected or whether it's lossless.

Not sure what you men, there are separate bit rate fields for audio & video:

http://openshotusers.com/help/1.3/en/ar01s23.html#sect2_82

[techtonik]

I believe there is the same problem with .webm container format.

[Andy]

If you select webm as the format, then in 1.4.2, regardless of which codecs you select they are overidden. This one was easy, as webm only allows 1 video codec and 1 audio codec.

[Cenwen]

Right shoot.

Ideally, in the export dialogue I would first specify the video container format, then select from only the video and audio codecs that work with that container. There would then be bit-rate and other encoding options SPECIFIC to those codecs. At the moment, the audio and video dialogues have just one field for selecting the same pre-determined bit-rates, regardless of what codec I've selected or whether it's lossless.

It is a good idea and what I'm thinking of an export screen. But FFmpeg doesn't help us in this task.

We have just began in this direction after to have speaking of something similar in our last meeting or the previous (I don't remember exactly). I 've search the common appellation of the main codecs/formats. Currently, it is a bit weird for the user (e.g libx264 instead of H264).

Anyway, we should probably revise our export screen.The user have not the possibility to create his own presets.
Have you an idea on the subject ? Mockups perhaps will be/are welcome.

[hanspb]

Ideally, in the export dialogue I would first specify the video container format, then select from only the video and audio codecs that work with that container. There would then be bit-rate and other encoding options SPECIFIC to those codecs.

Yes, it's a good idea - can you point us to where we can find this information?

Wikipedia has an overview of different container formats and supported codecs here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... er_formats

That seems to be a good starting point. I might dig a bit deeper into this if I get the time, to get a more refined overview to use for OpenShot developers. Probably not within the first few weeks, though.

[Worldsday]

Have you an idea on the subject ? Mockups perhaps will be/are welcome.

Like This?

[Cenwen]

Whaoou. Awesome and Tremendous.

Quickly, because I must gotta run. But I'll be back not today but tomorrow certainly.

A good vision totally different of that I was thinking. I was based on the style of Freemake Video Converter.
If you don't have Windaube installed, they have a channel youtube and you can see their philosophy near of us. Easy to use and powerful. Very well thought.

About the possibility to export video on Youtube, ..... it is a great and modern feature that have a lot of Video Editor on proprietary system. Same devices like pocket camcorders offer.

What software are you using to create this mockups ?

Thanks for the interest that you give to this project.

[Worldsday]

Thanks, Cenwen. I used inkscape to do these mockups.

About the possibility to export video on Youtube, ..... it is a great and modern feature that have a lot of Video Editor on proprietary system. Same devices like pocket camcorders offer.

"Other video editors have it" is not the best reason to have a feature on YOUR video editor. I don't think it's particularly useful, but it doesn't bother me either, so I have no strong feelings either way about its inclusion.

A good vision totally different of that I was thinking. I was based on the style of Freemake Video Converter. Easy to use and powerful. Very well thought.

I looked at Freemake, and while it is very pretty, I have to disagree with you about it being well thought-out. It looks as though all the codec settings hide behind presets, which you must edit in a separate window and save as a new preset if you want something different. This is backwards and unnecessary.

A user should be able to select a preset if they want, see those settings reflected in the very same export window, edit any parameters, and have OpenShot remember those settings automatically. Saving a preset is for when you want to use the same settings across multiple projects.

The concept I posted is based more on Adobe After Effects:

[Andy]

Thanks for posting this, there are some good ideas there that also encompass some of the commonly asked for features.

Regarding the ffmpeg command line options, we don't directly use ffmpeg for rendering at the moment - it is through MLT. When we move away from MLT to our new library this should become an option.

[Cenwen]

"Other video editors have it" is not the best reason to have a feature on YOUR video editor. I don't think it's particularly useful, but it doesn't bother me either, so I have no strong feelings either way about its inclusion

Yes and no. Yes you have reason on the fact that's not a reason for having something that others had. No, because even devices allow this service. I don't remember numbers for all the world but I know that for a month, Youtube have had 23 millions of connections in France. Personally and I am not alone to have this opinion), I find this feature very useful for the user and don't forget that a lot of people make a lot of video with their phone now, pocket camecorders,...

I looked at Freemake, and while it is very pretty, I have to disagree with you about it being well thought-out. It looks as though all the codec settings hide behind presets, which you must edit in a separate window and save as a new preset if you want something different. This is backwards and unnecessary.

I don't get the same opinion. I have a colleague at work who is a true/real "noob" on computer. I have done him to discover Freemake and he likes it an found it very intuitive. And my the boyfriend of my mother is agree with that and him, it is not a noob (rather the opposite) and pretty qualify in multimedia.And I am thinking the same thing even I understand well that everybody can 't like all this screens.Even me, I 'm torn on this issue. For sample, I'll see well a mix of the Freemake concept and the mockup (large) of the GUI done there was more than one year ago. And I will include the player in the GUI (not in a independent screen).

A user should be able to select a preset if they want, see those settings reflected in the very same export window, edit any parameters, and have OpenShot remember those settings automatically. Saving a preset is for when you want to use the same settings across multiple projects.

Here, I am totally agree with you.

The concept I posted is based more on Adobe After Effects:

I (we) don't know Adobe After Effects and I prefer (so far) your vision really more simple and efficient for the user.

We 'll keep this mockups and this great ideas in our cardboards for the moment, because we are working on our library (and the future of the project). And this feature needs a lot of work but I'm thinking that we 'll go to in this direction when the moment will come.
Thanks for all, your ideas, their synthesizing by your mockups and your interest for this project (and to improve it).

[beats]

it sounds pretty nice!

Me, as user, despiting the fact i tried in the past the upload video to youtube or vimeo, i've got to say that concerns about constantly changing api is something really important to address! Just because it turns out to maintenance, which is painful.

So efforts on usability on export options will be a very powerful option, as well as allowing to create own presets...

BTW, i think it will be hard to implement, as in fact it should rely on ffmpeg, shouldn't it? so it might have a very different options from one system to another, as ffmpeg can be compiled in a completely different ways...

[Cenwen]

BTW, i think it will be hard to implement, as in fact it should rely on ffmpeg, shouldn't it? so it might have a very different options from one system to another, as ffmpeg can be compiled in a completely different ways...

Exactly, this feature needs a lot of work.
Currently, we are working hard on our own framework which will replace (this year) our actual framework MLT. This one will bring a lot of news powerful features and an easy installation. But after, ............................all will be possible.
And his proposition, lean by this great vision (and mockup) is very very interesting.

[beats]

Completely agree!

libopenshot !

libopenshot !

libopenshot !

[hanspb]

I've been thinking about this too, the list of video formats is very confusing. On my system I counted no less than 93 entries, and to the best of my knowledge, less than half of these are actual video formats. There are lots of audio formats (flac and others), audio codecs (lots of PCM varieties among others), image formats (png, gif, bmp), video codecs (dnxhd, h264 and more) and even devices (dvd, iPod). So if this is what Ffmpeg returns when queried for video formats, then I think it is pretty useless.

In stead, the list of formats should be managed by humans. Someone should take the trouble to find out which formats in the list are real video formats, and maybe also restricting to commonly used formats. I have started to do so, I just hope I can find the time to finish .

I have also thought about the whole Export dialog, how I for one would like to have it. I'll be back with an illustration and better description, I'll just throw out some thoughts here.

First of all, like Worldsday said in the original post:

Ideally, in the export dialogue I would first specify the video container format, then select from only the video and audio codecs that work with that container. There would then be bit-rate and other encoding options SPECIFIC to those codecs. At the moment, the audio and video dialogues have just one field for selecting the same pre-determined bit-rates, regardless of what codec I've selected or whether it's lossless.

I think this is essential, and what the whole export dialog should be centered around. I also think that the Simple tab should have a bit more advanced functionality, and that the Advanced tab should contain a possibility to control Ffmpeg directly and in all its super advanced glory, perhaps like WinFF.

And just to clarify, my thoughts applies to how it would be with the new library, I know Ffmpeg can't be controlled directly as long as mlt is in the way.

[Andy]

Currently we query MLT for the list of formats & codecs, which in turn queries libavformat/libavcodec. I think the confusion originates from the fact that when you query MLT for a list of supported formats, there is no filtering applied, i.e. you cannot specify video formats or audio formats, it just returns a global list of formats.

The situation is a bit different for codecs, which can be queried separately for audio/video, which we currently do.

In stead, the list of formats should be managed by humans. Someone should take the trouble to find out which formats in the list are real video formats, and maybe also restricting to commonly used formats. I have started to do so, I just hope I can find the time to finish .

Something like that would be very useful, so thanks for taking on the task

The other issue that needs addressing that we (development team) have talked about is 'transposing' certain format names, i.e. matroska files normally have the 'mkv' extension, but they currently get written with the 'matroska' extension (as that is what we get from MLT). So I guess an ideal situation would be some kind of mapping file that spilts out the formats by type, and then also has a 'common name' mapping that can be picked up and used for the file extension.

I have also thought about the whole Export dialog, how I for one would like to have it. I'll be back with an illustration and better description, I'll just throw out some thoughts here.

First of all, like Worldsday said in the original post:

Ideally, in the export dialogue I would first specify the video container format, then select from only the video and audio codecs that work with that container. There would then be bit-rate and other encoding options SPECIFIC to those codecs. At the moment, the audio and video dialogues have just one field for selecting the same pre-determined bit-rates, regardless of what codec I've selected or whether it's lossless.

I think this is essential, and what the whole export dialog should be centered around. I also think that the Simple tab should have a bit more advanced functionality, and that the Advanced tab should contain a possibility to control Ffmpeg directly and in all its super advanced glory, perhaps like WinFF.

And just to clarify, my thoughts applies to how it would be with the new library, I know Ffmpeg can't be controlled directly as long as mlt is in the way.

Yes, it would be useful to have the ability to have a direct ffmpeg option, although we would have to be careful how we implemented that.

[hanspb]

Now I have gone through all 93 formats in the list to see which ones we need to keep. When I took away all audio related entries, some video codecs and other stuff I am left with a nice little list of 30 actual video container formats:

3g2
3gp
asf
asf_stream
avi
crc
ffm
flv
framecrc
gxf
m4v
matroska
mov
mp4
mpeg
mpegts
mxf
mxf_d10
nut
ogg
rawvideo
rcv
rm
RoQ
rtp
svcd
vcd
vob
webm
yuv4mpegpipe

Out of these, some may be less relevant for an editing application. If so, they might be left out, but I don't know enough about this to narrow it down further. Please note that I have left out the swf flash format, as I think only flv is needed for video production.

I also think that the formats that have "real" names like Quicktime, Flash etc should be listed with this name and the file extension in parenthesis, like this:

Flash (.flv)
Quicktime (.mov)

The next step is that when the user have selected a container format, only the audio and video codecs supported by this format should be visible. I will try to prepare a spreadsheet with this info.

[hanspb]

Attached here is a spreadsheet containing an overview of the different container formats, with supported audio and video codecs. In many cases the info has been quite difficult to find, so there may be mistakes and misunderstandings, and also missing info is possible. The codec names is a mix between names found in the different articles and in OpenShot's codec listing. Any way it is a starting point, and it would be nice if someone with the right knowledge could correct me or add missing info.

I have included resolution, frame rates, bit rates etc a couple of places, in an ideal world we should have this for all codecs and make it impossible to render invalid video files, but that would be an enormous task to set up. This may also depend on how Ffmpeg works.

Videoformater for OpenShot.ods

(18.6 KiB) Downloaded 94 times

[Cenwen]

Thanks a lot hanspb.

To my side, I have done something else which could complete your stuff with the .......same documentation on Widkipedia but not only. It is a good start for implement that.
Now the big problem is to parse the output of ffmpeg and to display something like you have done => Quicktime (.mov) for sample.

[hanspb]

Thanks a lot hanspb.

You're welcome

Now the big problem is to parse the output of ffmpeg and to display something like you have done => Quicktime (.mov) for sample.

Yes, that is a problem with the mess that ffmpeg outputs. But I was thinking that maybe we should do it a little more the other way around. In stead of asking ffmpeg every time which formats and codecs it can use, it might be better to have a built-in list in OpenShot, formatted the way we want it. That way it is easier to distinguish between container formats, audio codecs and video codecs and to combine them the right way.

Unfortunately I don't know much about programming beyond

10 print "Hello world"
20 goto 10
99 end

so all I can do is come up with abstract suggestions like this.